Podcast Ep. 7 | Turning Rejections and Failures into Motivation ft. Joanna Lilley
Episode title: Turning Rejections and Failures into Motivation ft. Joanna Lilley
Listen to the Episode Here:
Episode summary introduction:
For today's episode, Ryan interviews Joanna Lilley, who is a nationally certified counselor who serves as a Therapeutic Consultant working with young adults. Her specialty lies in helping young adults, mainly college students, navigate challenging periods of transition. She shares some inspiring experiences of rejection and failure, perseverance and grit, and how self-care has helped her better serve her clients and those around her.
Topics discussed in this episode:
Joanna’s career as an Therapeutic Consultant
Starting a business without business experience
Emotional Resilience through challenges
The importance of self-care
Perseverance through failures
Advice for those interested in working in the therapeutic space
References & Resources:
Get in Touch with Joanna Lilley
Listen to Joannah’s Podcast “Success is Subjective”
Episode Transcript:
Ryan Roberts: [00:00:00] Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Fail It to Nail It podcast. This is your host, Ryan Roberts, and we have with us Joana Lilly. Joana is a nationally certified counselor who serves as a therapeutic consultant, working with young adults only. Her specialty is in helping to navigate periods of transition.
She's, she has experience working in short term residential treatment, wilderness, and experiential therapy, and in higher education since 20, 2007. Seeing so many college students struggling on campus is what led Joana to start her own consulting practice in 2016. But not visiting clients or in zoom calls with families.
You can find Joanna recreating outdoors with her partner and two mutts. Joanna, how's it going today?
Joanna Lilley: Good. Thanks for having me, Ryan.
Ryan Roberts: Okay. Awesome. Awesome. I'm excited to have you here. Okay. I want to start with an icebreaker question. Okay. Go for it. Awesome. What unfinished projects do you have right now that you really want to get back to that you really want to wrap up?
Joanna Lilley: Um, literally as of this morning, um, I have a newly [00:01:00] installed closet system that I'm excited about. And the one missing piece is that I have to install the hardware. And so I have to go to the store to get the right nails. I've got the actual hardware, but that is very much a, um, very fresh unfinished project that I look forward to doing right after we wrap up this podcast.
Ryan Roberts: Okay. Oh, very cool. Very cool. All right. I feel like for me. Even just being able to like, change a lightbulb, like, raises my testosterone, I'm like, yeah, I did something, I'm not a very handy person, so, that's cool, I love hearing it, so, sounds like you're very, very close to finishing this project.
Joanna Lilley: Very close, homestretch.
Ryan Roberts: Okay, good, well good. Well, Joanna, I'm a little bit familiar with your story, but go ahead and tell me more about what it took to get you to where you're at. What is it that you're doing? Where are you at with your career?
Joanna Lilley: Yeah. So I am a therapeutic consultant, which, um, you kind of talked about a second ago, but really nobody, nobody necessarily understands what that title means in a nutshell.
I'm a [00:02:00] navigator and helping families match, make research and match, make resources. for their loved one. And so, um, tends to be sometimes during a point of crisis or just kind of like a, a crossroads where the young adult might be taking a break from college and trying to make a decision on where to go, what to do next, depending on what it is that they need.
So, um, Leading up to this place, I think most recently what kind of got me to, to launching my own consulting practice was in working in higher education for five years. I saw so many college students that were just really having this existential crisis. I'm not sure why I'm here. I'm not sure why I'm struggling for the first time.
It was almost like a, I don't want to call it an identity crisis, but it was almost to that point. There was a lot of questioning of. Why am I here? And is this the right place for me? And then I, of course, I'm very humanistic and person centered, and I love working with students. And it was the second that they left campus that I was being told, Hey, your job is to help those that are [00:03:00] enrolled on campus, but I had that relationship and rapport with those students that I cared about.
And so my attention kind of drifted. I'd rather not be place based and only helping those that are enrolled on campus. I actually want to be the person that's Literally standing at the base or the perimeter of the campus ground, saying, I'm here, I'm here, and I'm here to help you in case you need any support as you're transitioning out.
So that was kind of how I got to this place and then just kind of working through it at the time. So 2016, long enough ago, but also still like relatively fresh. Um, it was kind of unheard of to have a specialty as a consultant. A lot of times folks would just say, you know, if I'm a. therapeutic consultant, then I can work with a 12 year old or a 19 year old or a 29 year old, right?
I have expertise and knowledge in the therapeutic space, but nobody was focused on working with a particular developmental age group, or at least it wasn't notoriously known. And so I kind of [00:04:00] had to carve my own path because as I was stepping into this, I was getting a lot of pushback from other consultants saying, there's no way you can actually thrive.
Just working with young adults. You have to open your practice and work with adolescents. And in my head, having come from higher education, I want to work with an 18 year old and or somebody who is legally an adult so that I can have a direct line of communication with that person. And they are ultimately the one making the decision through the research process.
Where am I going to go? Who am I going to be connected with? And that's what, uh, that's what I do now and how I got to it.
Ryan Roberts: Man, so you had to weather some pretty serious storms to make it through here to even help other students who are trying to make it through some storms. So what were the storms like?
How did you make it past all of that
Joanna Lilley: resistance? I will say that it helped to have some people in my corner that believed in, uh, what it was that I was doing, right? If I had, if I had not been met with program staff that worked in young adult [00:05:00] programming, I or being reminded by some of my co workers in higher education on the original vision, Joanna, there is a need.
Don't let other voices cloud out what you saw, what I see, and what we know can actually be true. And so being connected and constantly kind of re centering myself, but then also being really intentional about how do I even get in front Of these families. How do I even get it connected to these young adults as they're off campus?
Because that certainly was, um, uh, a very, just a nebulous area. Like how, how do families even start to like Google researching options? And so I had to get really creative in my marketing and mind you, I don't have a background in research. So I'm also leaning on people that have MBAs to give me some guidance and direction and literally business 101 for an entrepreneur, because I'm focused more on the like empathy and the connection and just having [00:06:00] familiarity with therapeutic resources.
And then needing to weather the storm of how do you launch a business if you have no business acumen? Other than thinking, you know, what you want to do, but not really sure how to go about starting that business. So I would say the biggest challenge totally was just having to remind myself that there's a need and I could make it work and not, not allowing the void, the naysayers, right.
Or, or the pessimists, um, Or the worry warts that this was not possible.
Ryan Roberts: And it really sounds like there are a couple of pieces here. The social aspect was really helpful because there's a lot of social antagonists here. Right. And so you had this social people here backing you up, hold you up. Great. But on top of that, logistically, it was like, we know what we want to do, but we don't really know how to make it work.
And so you had people with particular skills backing up as well. [00:07:00] It sounds like a lot of this really was emotional for you. When we don't have the skills, we are filled with a lot of doubt. We don't have the skills. There's a lot of resistance. Even if we are wanting to make things happen, it's like, man, are we going to get this done in three years?
When it takes most people six months, that's discouraging, or at least it looms over us. We're like, man, I could get to where I want to be. And like half the time, if I went a different route, but this is what I want to do. And so connecting yourself with the right people and people that really believe what you're doing seem to have really helped.
And that was more than almost anything else that was helpful. Yeah. Completely
Joanna Lilley: agree.
Ryan Roberts: Okay. Oh, I love it. And so I'm curious, what would it take to be successful in your field? Because people have helped you. Great. Now here you are, you've been successful. You've proved a lot of people wrong. How do you stay successful?
Joanna Lilley: Oh, my goodness. Okay. So a couple, I think for me, how do I stay successful? Let me answer that first. I think that the biggest piece is continuing [00:08:00] to check in with myself in terms of my integrity. So do I still get inquiries from families of 14 and 16 year olds? And might those be down months where I haven't been hired by a new family?
And as a business owner, I'm like, how am I going to pay the bills? Cause that's real. Um, but being tested that way and also knowing. That as long as I stay the course, right, stay true to my business mission, which is 18 plus, right, that young adult group, then as I'm referring those 14 and 16 year olds out to another consultant or another resource, then I know that the universe.
And all of the professionals that are seeing me understand that I am firmly planted in who it is that I serve. So I think a big part of my success is just staying the course and immediately still serving. Who I started out saying that I was going to serve and not [00:09:00] wavering from that path whatsoever.
Now, in terms of somebody coming into this space, like how to be successful, I do really think genuinely, and let's be real, I'm a little biased because of my own experience. I do think you need to have a niche. I think you need to have expertise and experience, not just educationally, right? Like, if you're going to work in the therapeutic space, you need to have some sort of mental health background, whether it's psychology, counseling, you know, psychiatry, whatever.
It would be ideal to have some sort of educational baseline. I also think it's really helpful to have experience working in programs, because how can you go about explaining to a young adult or an adolescent if that's who you work with? What to expect if you've never had that experience yourself. And I'm not saying as a participant, I'm literally saying as just a staff understanding what it means to be kind of in the trenches.
And so I think that that also just gives any consultant an [00:10:00] opportunity to be better at their job because of those employment and educational experiences. I remember working
Ryan Roberts: in programs and, um, I did it for like 10 years and I would over and over and over again, see people come in excited to work with people like, I mean, I love helping my friends and family and within six weeks they're like, I can't do this.
This is not for me. And then other people within six weeks, they're like, I'm energized. I'm pumped. And it's not to say that the people who come in and they're like, I can't do this. They don't care. And that they're not empathetic people. But the type of work that they can do that they can do to help certain demographics is not treatment.
Kids are not, um, that it's not a borderline. It's not autism. It's very different. It might be academics or something. Who knows? But working in treatment. Oh, boy, do I see that where it takes a very specific type of [00:11:00] personality or type of resilience or something, whatever it is. Yeah. Okay. I love that. Oh, and the niche.
It is very tempting. I know, uh, in our business, there are two main demographics that we used to work with, but our data started to show that we weren't very great with them. And people come in with that, for example, heavy substance users. Um, we're not the greatest with, but when they come in and they're like, we really want to work with you.
Like, Oh, we love this person in your company. They're so sweet. It is tempting, but you were able to make it through that. And you're able to communicate with them. Uh, why are you able to get them the help you need? So how do you make it through emotionally? Because you do it. But in both of these instances, you have, there's something about you.
Something about you that can work with these kind of people and these programs, or something about you that can be emotionally resilient and say, you know what, I have these principles, I can stick to them, even though, like, I have to make ends meet. What is it? Does it natural? Is it developed? Is it a [00:12:00] mix of both?
What is it about you that's able to make all of that come together?
Joanna Lilley: I think it's a mix of both for sure. Right? Some of my own personal and professional experiences. And then I think it's also, you know, you have to, you have to walk the talk as well, right? Like as, as I am telling families or talking to a young adult about potential therapeutic modalities or resources, I have to make sure that I'm holding up the mirror for myself.
Yeah. Absolutely. Because if I'm also, you know, I think the analogy might actually be if I'm not putting my oxygen mask on, right? If I'm reactive, if I'm unwell, then how the heck am I able to see clearly and how to support the clients that are showing up for me? So I'm making sure that my areas of wellness as I'm, you know, physically, emotionally, uh, you know, even environmentally, like, All of those things I need to make sure that I'm tapping into on a daily basis.
Am I exercising? Am I eating well? Am I getting the sleep that I need? Am I going to therapy? Am I doing other [00:13:00] things that bring me joy, right? So that when I am showing up for a client, Their sense of urgency, I can be empathic, but I'm also in my rational and logical brain, rather than diving right into where they are emotionally.
And I do think that that is, that's just a product of me doing my own work, but that also came from Experience working in, you know, adolescent short term residential treatment and not, not knowing developmentally at the time for myself, like, oh, my gosh, I don't know what self care is. Please teach me right as a 21 year old.
And so learning kind of as I am doing in real time. But obviously that's been finessed over the years and allowed me to be where I am right now.
Ryan Roberts: I love it. We're going to transition a little bit because you started talking about shortcomings that you've had and places where you tried to learn and grow and I think it'd be very interesting to hear about some [00:14:00] points of failure that you ran into and you run into some of this and you're like, okay, teach me more and you're like a sponge and you soaked it in and you talked about some of your natural traits, but this is where it seems like you've developed some things.
Where are some points of failure where you leaned into that failure, leaned into that discomfort? And you overcame it.
Joanna Lilley: I think, um, gosh, there's so many I could probably pull from. I mean, going, going as far back as even like being a senior in high school and applying for colleges and not getting accepted to some of the places that felt, um, like easy, right?
So being humbled of, wow, I really thought that the path that I was going to be able to go on is It's way more narrow. And now I understand too, in hindsight, that the path that I ended up taking was supposed to be because of the connections and the experiences that I had. But had I gone to a different school, I wouldn't have had them.
So I think receiving a lot of those [00:15:00] rejection letters as a 17 year old was really hard for me to handle. In fact, I, I can tell you, like, I remember vividly getting one particular school rejection letter and I was I had to leave my classroom and, you know, as a, I mean, mind you, this was also 20 years ago, but that was so pivotal in my path, the launching into adulthood, because I really thought I thought it was going to be different beyond that.
I think the next level of. Experiencing failure or rejection for me was also applying to a lot of school, not schools, excuse me, jobs, right? So I managed to make it through college. Now I'm in the work world. I'm applying for a lot of jobs and I'm not even getting interviews. Okay, how do you continue to persevere?
Because the initial reaction right now for a lot of the young adults that, that I would deal with is, or that I'm working with, is that the second they get the first letter, [00:16:00] right, or they feel like a failure, Oh, my gosh, I just can't even I can't even apply, right? I can't bring myself to fill out another application.
I am a failure. Not that I failed, but that that, you know, shame spiral really exists. Whereas when I was 21, 22 at the time, and I'm applying for jobs. I was applying for anything and everything and then if I did get the like one in a hundred where I'd be interviewed and maybe offered the job then I was trying to make an intentional decision for myself.
Is this where I want to be? Because I was casting a wide net. Do I want to move to California? Do I want to live in West Virginia? Do I want to go up to Wyoming? I mean it was just I really cast that wide net. Um, but Literally up until last year, I kept the folder of all of the jobs that I'd ever applied for.
I mean, we're talking hundreds of jobs. And I also, cause I'm, I'm a little bit, um, [00:17:00] overly organized and obnoxious in some capacities, but I would track not just where did I apply? When did I apply? What was the response? And so it was just fascinating, you know, again, almost 20 years later where I'm reading through this, like, I cannot believe.
That I kept forward. Like, that was just wild. And then I think something that struck me, um, Is, you know, applying for conferences, like submitting proposals, uh, presentations and being really excited and getting rejected and questioning, you know, I wonder why I'm not receiving that when I worked in higher education, the last institution that I worked at, I applied for a grant and I was, I mean, overly confident that I would get it.
And I was really excited about the research opportunity. And when I got rejected, I, I not only got rejected. So obviously I, I failed at being able to get this grant. I also got reprimanded, which I've never [00:18:00] fully had happen in a job. And it was such a childlike experience because I felt so uncomfortable.
And it really, that might've actually been like one of the many turning points where I really started to pull back and realize, you know what, I don't think working for higher education, like one institution is going to be the best path for me long term. Um, and a part of that decision was like, they don't, uh, this is a gross generalization, but in my head, I was thinking in the end, they really don't care about me, I'm replaceable.
Um, and so I think. When I felt that right, like I could leave it and it wouldn't matter. So no matter how much I'm putting in to working with these students at the end of the day, it does it just like, it's not going to move the needle. Um, and so there's, there's a twinge of feeling like. A failure in that [00:19:00] regard.
And that's also where the kind of the twist or the light bulb started to shine, which was, you don't have to work in, in a higher education institution or, you know, in student affairs to be able to work with the population that you want to work with, you can be creative and find a new avenue. And that's how I ended up eventually kind of sidestepping and launching my consulting practice.
But. If I actually sat down, Ryan, and like thought about every point in my life, I could tell you there's probably hundreds of points where I have failed, right? Not making a team, um, you know, whatever else. If I wasn't resilient or if I didn't learn from those failures, I absolutely would not be where I am today.
Ryan Roberts: It sounds like a lot of them directly related to some sort of growth opportunity. You had some sort of thought that came from it or some sort of like emotional growth. You're [00:20:00] like, Oh, okay. You were able to be more resilient, emotional or anti fragile or whatever it is that whatever term we want to use.
But something came from it every single time. Every single time you mentioned a failure, there was something there you gained. Okay, how'd that translate to where you're at now? Because now you have a practice, right? But I imagine there's other things as well. Maybe there's something in relationships.
Maybe there's hobbies. Maybe there's some other things. But what have you gained now after all of these failures? Where you're at in professional, personal, interrelational, where are you at with your life?
Joanna Lilley: Yeah, I'm in, I'm in a really good place. Um, but I think that that is to your point. It's from all of these growth opportunities where, and I'm human, right?
Let me also say that right now. I say I'm in a good place in an hour when I'm finishing the hardware on my dresser and I messed something up. Like, I'm gonna have emotional response. Um, Not that, not that, [00:21:00] knock on wood, not that that's going to happen, but if it does happen, it could happen. Um, but I am learning, right.
It is through all of my past experiences, how I show up right in this moment. And every moment is a choice, right? Can I be explosive and frustrated and, and cry? Yeah, I could do that. Or I could stop in the moment. I could think, I could think about similar experiences. What did I learn before? How can I, you know, problem solve in this moment?
I could use a coping skill. Hey, I need to take a break. Um, I'm just going to check out from right now. So I think that there's like so many ways that because of my previous professional and personal experiences have put me in a place right now where I'm, where I'm okay. I'm okay if I don't get a lot of inquiries each month, right?
I'm not, I'm not worried to the point where I'm making myself sick. [00:22:00] Maybe I'm stopping and saying, I wonder what's going on? Let me ask my other colleagues if they're also down in their inquiries. Or, hey, maybe I should, maybe I should Reassess, I need to get on the road, tour some programs, make sure that I'm busy, or revisit my outreach list of therapists that I need to connect with.
I mean, there are ways in which I can continue to problem solve what, what I could be stuck in as a problem and allow anxiety to well up, like literally dwell. Or I can pivot and work through and continue to feel like I am making forward momentum in my personal and professional life on a daily basis.
Ryan Roberts: Hey, I love this because instead of what I might expect from other people, where they might say, because of my failures, I have like a thriving business and I have like tons of money, who knows, right? For you, it's because of what I've experienced, it doesn't really matter what's [00:23:00] going to come up. I will feel frustrated just as I might've before.
And I still might experience anger, grief, loss, shame. All of these things are going to happen still. And I know I'm going to persevere and still experience this joy after that, and I'm still going to experience relief, and finally, the cat, like, the, uh, closet's going to get fixed. I know it might get broken, I might mess something up, but it's going to get resolved, and I will get to the end.
Right? It sounds like for you, going forward, where you're at with your life right now, it's great, and whatever happens, you're going to get to the end of that storm. That's what I'm hearing from how you're describing it, and that's what it sounds like your mentality is now going
Joanna Lilley: forward. Completely. That is completely accurate.
Ryan Roberts: I love it. I love it. Let me ask more directly about your field specifically because I imagine some people listening to this episode are probably interested in either the therapeutic side or academic side or maybe how you merge this [00:24:00] and do therapeutic consulting, educational consulting, but how would you advise people and try to overcome failure or try to be successful in this industry?
Joanna Lilley: I think the First things first is to look at the Therapeutic Consulting Association or Independent Educational Consulting Association applications just to get a sense of what is the minimum requirement to be a member. And I think understanding, again, and that's just nuts and bolts, right? Your academic experience, employment experience, like who you as a, as a person, personal reference, et cetera, that's just entry into the door.
And then that doesn't speak to business mentorship, right? Um, like understanding tips and tricks on how to quickly find a pool of like marketing for yourself or understanding the difference between outreach [00:25:00] versus marketing, um, how to find balance as a consultant. In your personal and professional life, because it can be kind of stressful if you, especially if you have your own family or a young family can be kind of challenging, but I also think going into it without any sense of what it is that you want to do.
Right? Again, I'm going to be biased. I really think you need to have a focus. If you say I really want to work in the therapeutic space, I really want to work with adolescents in the therapeutic space, then I would say you need to find people that have been doing this for an extended period, that have degrees in some sort of mental health field, maybe worked in the field, ideally.
But they've been doing this full time and their expertise is therapeutic adolescent services. Have them take you under their wing. Understand, like literally be on client inquiry calls. Travel with them to tour [00:26:00] programs and get to know resources so that you actually Understand what questions to ask, what we need to be observing and paying attention to because there are no books out there that say, here's how you become a consultant because it's so subjective.
Um, and it is really easy to flop. I think a lot of people also put consulting on a pedestal like, oh, that job must be so glamorous. No, it's hard work. It's a business. You have to make sure that you actually have referrals coming in and you also need to stay on top of your game of knowledge and awareness of programs, changing staff, turnover, right?
Mill use that are toxic. Like you name it, you need to know that stuff. And it's really hard to stay on top of it. If you don't really feel like you have an expertise in one particular lane. Uh, and so it can be. Uh, it can be challenging. And I think if you don't have [00:27:00] a lot of those experiences like me, where you continue to work through what feels like, you know, a dead end, or you come to, you know, kind of a, um, a bump in the road, if you don't get through that, it's really easy to just throw in the towel.
So I think anybody that wants to come into this space of being a therapeutic or educational consultant, you need to have mentorship, and you also need to be prepared that this is not an easy job.
Ryan Roberts: Oh, super helpful. It's beautiful. And it honestly sounds like a lot of what you shared is very relevant for people who are starting private practices or things that are very, uh, in the mental health world, very related to referrals, medicine, whatever it may be. It sounds like being very connected with anyone in your industry sounds incredibly helpful to take your advice.
Yeah, I love it. Yeah. Okay. All right. That's all the time we have for today. So I'm going to share a takeaway point for me. I'd like to hear a takeaway point for you as well, whether it's in the discussion that we've had or just in the preparation. [00:28:00] That you've made in, uh, preparing for this episode. Okay. I think the biggest takeaway point for me is probably there's a lot of awesome things, but I probably want to highlight the focus on a niche because I work with a lot of clients who, regardless of whether they're ambitious or not, they want to do everything.
I worked with an ADHD client, even just yesterday, who, uh, and ADHD clients are like this all the time where they often create task lists based on how. They have finished tasks the fastest in the past. Like they've written a paper at some point in their life in 10 minutes, even though on average it's two hours.
So they always plan writing papers as though it's going to take 10 minutes. Right. And same with cleaning the kitchen. The fastest they've ever done is five minutes, but usually it takes an hour. And so they create this enormous task list. Um, they want to get everything done. Um, and that's not just on like a day to day task list.
It's also just what they want to get done in their life, the kind of people [00:29:00] they want in their life. Um, it's not just ADHD clients either. It's a lot of people. So I don't think it's just the focus on a niche, but just being focused in your life when you're developing habits, when you're developing skills, when you're connecting with people, um, when you're building a business.
I feel like a focus on a niche or just being focused on your goals being focused on really what a priority is for you. I think it's so important for a lot of people and a lot of people want to grab everything and it's not to say that's not important. I think it's because we like a lot of these things.
We want to put our hands in all these pots, but boy does that dilute a lot of what we're trying to push for. So that's huge for me and I'm really glad to hear that that's what made you successful and that you're highlighting that point. What's a good takeaway point for you either in this session or either.
Joanna Lilley: Well, I think as you were even talking about focus. That's great, because I think that is, especially if we're talking about, like, some, [00:30:00] something that you have locked your vision or sights on, like, I want to get into this school, or I want to make this team, or I want to do this task. Reminding yourself that sometimes, sometimes there are false summits in getting to where it is that you want to go to.
And I think that, um, All of the things that we talked about really boil down to grit, right? Ambition, perseverance, resiliency. Like what we're talking about is if you want to get to the summit, right? And you hit that fall summit, you have to dig deep to continue on. Even though you're going to be more exhausted, you still don't know how much further it might be.
Um, and maybe you're just, you're ready to throw in the towel. However. If you are still locked in on whatever it is that you're focused on, right? Whatever your, your sights are set on the job, the team, the school, et cetera. [00:31:00] Then you have to dig deep. And anytime you hit, you know, a rock or a boulder, that's too big to get around.
You got to get creative. You got to brainstorm. Okay. Well, I'm here, but I want to keep going, so what is my path? Instead of just stopping right then and there. So I think that's something, like, as we talked about everything today, I just kept thinking about grit, and the need to have grit in order to totally get where you want to go.
Ryan Roberts: I love the term get creative doesn't necessarily mean work harder and doesn't necessarily like mean put more resources in You can also mean have more fun with it and approach it with a different angle and incorporate more people. I love it. Okay Awesome. Joanna, how can people get connected with you if they are interested in working with you and if they are interested in getting more information about educational consulting?
Joanna Lilley: Yeah, I think to, to connect with me, you can just head over to my [00:32:00] website. It's www. lillyconsulting. com. And that's where also I have the links for all social media platforms. Like I have some YouTube videos where I've answered a lot of common questions that parents ask. Okay. Um, I've got a podcast. And so again, there's, there's just so much where parents can actually find free resources, even without connecting with me, uh, the website's pretty robust.
And then, if you're interested in being a consultant, again, I would just kind of, um, direct you towards the therapeutic consulting association. I think it's called therapeutic consulting dot org and then I. E. C. A. Which is, um, iecaonline. com and both organizations are pretty transparent, direct with, you know, how to find a pro, but also how to, um, get connected to join those organizations.
If that's something that you're interested in pursuing. You
Ryan Roberts: were the chair of, uh,
Joanna Lilley: TCA, correct? I was. Yeah. Okay. So you're I finished my term in, uh, March of 2023. [00:33:00] Okay.
Ryan Roberts: Yeah. You're pretty knowledgeable of this stuff. Okay. I love it. All right. So for those of you that are listening, we'll put the show notes in the description, including Joanna's information, if you want to check that out, and we'll call it a day.
Thank you, Joanna, for joining me today. I love it. Thanks, Ryan. All right. Take care.
