Podcast Ep. 8 | Creativity and Mental Health ft. Mike Nelson CMHC
Listen to the Episode Here
Topics discussed in this episode
Mike’s Background and Career
References and Resources
Book referral: Big Magic by Elizabeth Gilbert
Mike Nelson’s Youtube Channel : https://www.youtube.com/@mikenelsoncmhc/videos
Episode Summary
We are so excited to interview Mike Nelson, Clinical Mental Health Counselor, on our show today! Mike shares about how his background and passions influenced his decision to become a therapist, and how creativity plays such a deep and significant role in mental health.
Episode Transcript
Ryan Roberts: [00:00:00] Hello, everyone. Welcome to fail it to nail it today. We have on our show, Mike Nelson, who was a clinical mental health counselor, who works with children, adolescents, adults, and groups, and does marriage and family counseling. He specializes in working with a handful of things such as depression, anxiety, phobias, perfectionism, OCD, addictions, parenting skills, and a lot of these are kind of, they go together.
Uh, he also provides EMDR, which is a treatment for people who struggle with trauma and PTSD. And his work also allows his patients to identify and eliminate negative thinking patterns, practice emotional regulation, and increase self compassion. He has a Bachelor's Degree in International Studies from Brigham Young University, and a Master's Degree in Marriage, Family, and Consumer Development from Utah State University.
And he actually has a second Master's Degree in Clinical Mental Health Counseling from the University of Phoenix. He's married, has four children, and when he isn't working, he enjoys playing with his kiddos, celebrating pop culture. He founded [00:01:00] movies and comic books, gardening, drawing, reading, and learning the ukulele.
All right. Awesome. Mike, how's it going today?
Mike Nelson: It's going great. Yeah. Good.
Ryan Roberts: Why are things going great for you, man?
Mike Nelson: Well, um, I'm really happy to be with you. I, I was reflecting in preparation for this, that I really am thankful and I really get excited when people, uh, invite me to do something like this because it gets my mind going, it gets my juices flowing.
And I really, really do like, uh, being able to step back and be reflective and think about questions. And so it's been a real gift to be invited to do this. And I, uh, as I thought about like us being together, like I thought, I just kept getting more and more excited. I was like, really excited to be with you [00:02:00] today.
So I'm just really excited.
Ryan Roberts: Yeah. Honestly, the topic as well. It's going to be exciting. I like talking to you and I like figuring out more about you, your career and your background, but the theme today as we explore creativity. And how it could fit into our lives and how we can help other people explore it.
I think it's going to be exciting. Let's do it.
Mike Nelson: Shall we? Yeah,
Ryan Roberts: let's do it. Okay. As an icebreaker though, to begin, uh, I am curious. I like to ask this question a lot to a lot of people, because I like to learn. I learned a lot either about their career or just personal hobbies, but for you, well, unfinished projects you have right now that you just want to get back to, you've been dying to get back to, to
Mike Nelson: finish.
I guess where my mind goes with that is that. Like just in domestic life, um, around our home and stuff, I have a long list of things that I'd like to get to, uh, that never feel quite done. Like, you know, getting the garage cleaned out and I want to put some shelving in there so it can get more organized.
And [00:03:00] there's some stuff I'd like to do in our yard, you know, when spring comes around. That's one thing that comes up in my mind is like, there's, there's those kind of things that are always kind of lurking in the back of my mind. But, um, maybe we'll talk about this a little bit more, but one of the projects I'm currently working on that I really enjoy is mixing some media to help kind of get some more mental health awareness out there.
And so teaching some mental health principles in the context of stories and characters that we love. And so we can talk about that more a little bit. Okay.
Ryan Roberts: Awesome. Well, how about you tell us more about your background then? Cause you're bringing up the mental health side. Um, most people by now know I'm a mental health counselor, but tell me more about your career and how you
Mike Nelson: got into it.
Yeah. And if you'll, if I can have your permission to answer that a little bit in an unusual way.
Ryan Roberts: Yeah, by all means. I'm curious. Go for it.
Mike Nelson: So, Recently, as I listened to podcasts, I noticed [00:04:00] that a very common thing that they do at the beginning of a podcast is ask people. So yeah, what do you do for a living?
How'd you get there? And so I've, I've done that. I've heard you do that on your podcast and I've heard that on other podcasts and it's caused me to reflect and maybe it's just my age and where I am in life. Kind of like this, like who am I and what am I doing, you know, with my life? And where have I been and where am I going?
And so, you know, Kind of a roundabout way to answer your question is I've realized recently about myself that I am a lover of stories. Like, as I reflect back, even as early as when I was a little, little kid, I loved consuming stories in just about every form there is, like, I loved movies, I love television, I love books, uh, I love graphic novels, um, When I was little, there were these little, like, records.
I don't even know if people, like, know what a record is anymore. [00:05:00] Yeah, of course people know what a record is. But they were like, there were these smaller records, and you'd put them on this little toy record player in your room, and you'd follow along with a book. And there were these read along narrations of, like, movies and stuff.
They had this tag line, this thing that they would always say, you'll know, it's time to turn the page when you hear the chime ring like this, and a lot of chime would come on, you'd turn the page. And I just, ever since I was little, I love stories and I consume them in so many different ways. And I, as I reflected on that, I realized that that's never gone away.
Like, that's been something that from, like, I remember listening to Dr. Seuss books. Yeah. You know, when I went to bed and my, my, uh, my mom would read to me and my dad got me into science fiction in high school. And that just continues to today. And, and why I think that's significant is because as I've pursued a professional [00:06:00] life, it, it's also had this.
loving of stories element in it. I used to be in religious education years ago and in religious education, there's a real love for the stories that are told in the holy writings and like how those help our life. But I've also realized as I've gone through life that our mental health, like the, their happiness and our mood and Our day to day life is really affected by the stories that we listen to and that our mind tells us about ourself and about others and the meanings that we give to things.
And so taking a long way around answering your question today, professionally, I'm a therapist. But when I think about that job, I think a lot of my job is listening to people's stories. And just inviting a little bit of curiosity, [00:07:00] um, for people to sit with their story and, um, maybe a little bit of allowing people permission to reauthor their story in ways that are more helpful.
And maybe why I'd share that is because I love your, as I've listened to your podcast, what I love about it is it's. Taking the story of failure and reframing it and looking at it a different way because I really do believe that when I look at my life and I look at this idea of what we call failure. I really is.
I believe it's a story that we tell ourself. And so I'm a therapist by day, but I really think a lot of what I do is. Sitting with people and listening to stories. Oh, I love that. Does that make sense?
Ryan Roberts: Yeah. It makes a lot of sense. And even the way you're describing it, the way you've been thinking about it, it's almost like this narrative as well.[00:08:00]
Right.
Mike Nelson: Yeah. Like there's, there's this little piece of me in, in my own story.
Ryan Roberts: Oh man. Yeah. And so I'm curious about how this plays a role, uh, in therapy or in your personal life. Cause this storytelling element is a piece of you, but there's also a piece of, uh, I mean, love what you talked about is digesting the stories.
You hinted at helping people reframe stories. Yeah. And, and create. So tell me about how creativity plays a role now. How do you utilize that in your life?
Mike Nelson: So I think that's a great question. And I was really hoping that today we could talk about this question. I'd be interested also as if you're in mental health as well.
You've had a lot of experience and a lot of wisdom that you've accrued. And I thought I wanted, as I prepared for this today, I wanted to ask you this question. And maybe we can talk about it together is why is creativity [00:09:00] an essential part of good mental health?
Ryan Roberts: Okay. I love it.
Mike Nelson: And so I'm curious, like what comes up in your mind when you think about that, when you think if we were to tie these two ideas together, like improve mental health, improve wellbeing, why is creativity such an important part of that?
What comes right to your mind?
Ryan Roberts: That's a good question. I think that a big part of what I do with a lot of my clients is realize that they are not locked into their story. So to speak, speak, right. And it's not going to play out in a way that they perceive it. There's a lot of my clients who simply, when we asked them to, uh, or the parents asked them, someone's like, Hey, how about we try X, Y, and Z.
Right. Uh, mom says, talk to your teacher. Let's see if they give you an extension in their mind. They've already told the story of they're going to tell me. No, [00:10:00] the syllabus says. Uh, no late assignments or whatever, and they, they stop. And what I often like to do is help them either find creative solutions.
So it's a little bit different than exploring creativity, but it's saying we really have this end goal, which is passing the class. And it doesn't have to mean talking to the teacher and it might mean talking to the teacher, but a different way and realizing that things aren't always as they seem. And even if the worst comes to pass, um, it doesn't necessarily bar us from where we want to go.
And so for them, a lot of it is kind of unlocking this ability to be able to see things from different perspectives. And that's what enables this creative problem solving. And so that's a lot of what I like to do with my clients. I love
Mike Nelson: that. So like, if someone was to Google, like why creativity improves mental health, right?
They're going to find a whole bunch of things, but they'll find some research based findings that people that regularly engage in [00:11:00] creative pursuits, they have more satisfaction in life. They have more. There's a, there's an improved quality of life when there's things that you get to do and get to get to in life, right?
If I, if I'm going to go work on my garden or if I'm going to go mess around on my ukulele and I get to do that rather than my life is just a series of things I have to do. We're going to have an improved mood, but what you're speaking to is something that I absolutely love. And it's. Again, thinking back to my childhood and how I, how I loved listening to stories, there's a couple characters that particularly delighted me.
As I watched their stories. So MacGyver, I don't know if you've, I don't know if you're old enough to listen to this podcast and be like, who's MacGyver famous TV personality, Indiana Jones, James Bond, and pretty [00:12:00] much any Jackie Chan character in any one of his movies. Um, I think back to why did these characters especially delight me?
Like, why did I love watching these people? And it speaks to exactly what you're talking about in mental health is that they have what we today call. flexibility. Okay. It's, it's this idea that like, if you watch Jackie Chan in a, in a, in a movie, or if you watch Indiana Jones or James Bond or MacGyver, really the story is a series of traps that are laid.
And then the character is finding a creative way. a, a, a, a flexible response, if you will, out of the trap. And we loved that, right? We loved watching like, Oh my gosh, here's Indiana Jones [00:13:00] trying to figure out how to like, get this like idle off the pedestal without, you know, getting trapped in a, in a pyramid or something like that.
And then things would go wrong. And then he'd have to adapt even more. And, um, I've been thinking about that, that I think that is another reason why creativity is really important for our mental health is because in life we are kind of like these characters. We are going through a series of traps and challenges that, that necessitate or force us to Use our creative thinking to escape to come up with a creative solution.
Another character like this that I loved as a really small child was Bugs Bunny, like he was the master of this. Uh, again, I don't know if Bugs Bunny is still a popular cartoon character today, but you know, Bugs Bunny's MO was to find a creative solution. Out of a predicament that [00:14:00] he found himself in. So, I think there's a lot of really great mental health benefits that come out of being a creative thinker.
Trying to find a new way around a problem.
Ryan Roberts: Can't tell you how much I've enjoyed watching, uh, like Donnie Yen, who has really crisp martial arts choreography is clean, is cool. And then the dichotomy between that, he's one of my favorites and like Jackie Chan, where it's like, when life gives you a ladder, like, what are you going to do with it?
You know, or less, you know, it's like, this is what I have to work with. And it's harder, it's difficult. But he makes it work. I love that. It's so
Mike Nelson: fun. And even seeing the difference, right? Like. You see how Jackie Chan does it and he has his own style and creativity and he's kind of like what I would call the, the martial arts clown.
Right? Like he, he's always like, you know, honking himself on the head and, and then other people are like, not in [00:15:00] that element. They're just more, like you said, like more crisp and more professional in the way they, they do things. But, you know, so I, I really think that if we could learn to be more. Indiana Jones, be more Jackie Chan, be more Bugs Bunny in our life.
I think we will encounter situations that our mind feels more flexible. It's not rigid. It's not black or white. It's not either or, and then that helps us solve problems as we go throughout life. Plus, it just makes for a more enjoyable life.
I think seeking things that we get to do rather than things that we need to do. And when we think about creativity, I think people generally think about like, well, you know, that could be writing a story or that could be painting a painting or, and those all apply as well. But I think there's just an endless list of creative endeavors that people can be involved in in life.
And we get to participate in that as [00:16:00] humans.
Ryan Roberts: I work with a lot of ADHD clients, um, and usually there's, uh, there's a lot that goes on there, but if they are focusing on functionality, uh, like I have finals coming up, or I don't want to lose my job, like I'm at risk, I've been written up twice. There's a couple of things I like to put in place, and usually it's like some alarm system, a calendaring system, a task list system, these are all great.
These help with functionality, and they like that because it's pretty tangible. I always include a fourth one, and there's always questions about this one. So I say these three plus a creative outlet, they're like, how the heck does this help me with functionality? How does this help me like be on time to things or whatever it may be?
And a lot of the time, these people who are really focused on functionality, uh, when they hear creativity, they're thinking about. Dance, uh, music, uh, art, they're thinking of fine arts, whatever it may be. And [00:17:00] I'm asking them to instead find some way to tackle a problem. And that was basically it. And if that is home improvement, if that is programming, it doesn't matter.
But any type of problem you encounter, it's a problem because the solution isn't always very clear. Um, if it. If it's something you just have to fix, but it's not really a problem. So I can't make a, I can't differentiate that. Um, if the answer is very clear, like, well, I got to turn this in on time. It's not really a problem.
It's something you just have to do. Sure. But when you're late, It's like, crap, what do we do about that? That's a problem and they have to be creative with it. So a creative outlet is something I like to do with all of my ADHD clients. I love for them to explore that in any capacity. And usually, like, creating a video game comes up.
You're like, alright, I just want you to get more, start picking up coding. Um, it doesn't really matter what it is. It helps these
Mike Nelson: kids a ton. Can I read a quote from a book that I really like? Yes, please do. So [00:18:00] this, uh, just to give you a little background on this book. So this book is called big magic by Elizabeth Gilbert, who is a very famous author, um, of, uh, of a book called eat, pray, love, which I actually haven't read, but I've heard of it.
I've heard it's really good. Um, one of my clients actually mentioned, they knew that I was, that I love movies and creation and stories and television and stuff. And they suggested this book to me. They said, have you ever heard of this book? So I read it. And since, I don't know, I think it was like a year or so ago, I've read it four times.
Wow. Just, just because so much happens in my mind when I read it. And really the background to this book is she, Elizabeth Gilbert. I want to write her a letter sometime. I want to write a letter and say, Hey, you probably got to like a lot of fans and stuff, but I really want to thank her for like how [00:19:00] she's affected my life because she writes about her process of writing.
Like as a, as a writer, she writes about what it's like to craft a story and what it's like to have an idea. And Some of the emotional and mental hurdles that come in writing, but for me, it's been kind of like a symbolic journey of just anything that you're trying to do where an idea tugs at you. It could be creating a D and D campaign.
It could be, you know, coming up with, uh, uh, uh, uh, a programming solution. And so I wanted to read something that she says that just really is just so, so great. She says, when I talk about creative living, and she has that in quotes here in the book, when I talk about creative living here, please understand that I'm not necessarily talking about pursuing a life that is [00:20:00] professionally or exclusively devoted to the arts.
I'm not saying that you must become a poet who lives on a mountaintop in Greece, or that you must perform at Carnegie Hall, or that you must win the Palme d'Or at the Cannes Film Festival. Though, if you want to attempt any of these, by all means, have at it. I love watching people swing for the bleachers.
When I refer to creative living, I am speaking more broadly. I'm talking about living a life that is driven more strongly by curiosity. Then my fear. And I love that. I love that framing of, uh, of living a creative life. And so like for your listeners, right? Like I would, I would say if you're listening to this episode and wondering how it applies to you, I would say, think of like any way that the universe or your sense of the divine or, or just whatever [00:21:00] you call it is tugging at you with an idea.
Right? Like, is there something that you just thought, I wonder what it would be like to do that. And there, and right there is the seed of creation. That's, that's the pivotal moment is like, just this idea. Cause I wonder if I could write, I wonder if anyone's ever wrote in a story about this or what's a possibility in life that is exciting to you.
Does that make
Ryan Roberts: sense? Yeah. That last line, a life led by curiosity rather than fear. Something along those lines. Uh, that paints a picture for me in my head of someone who is driven by fear. They are trying to protect something. And that is a very healthy response in a lot of ways, but it
Mike Nelson: can be. Yes.
Ryan Roberts: Like, but that means their focus is on this [00:22:00] a lot of the time.
Okay. If this is taken care of, then we can start looking out. That's fine. And this is where people struggle is looking beyond this to curiosity and curiosity, um, is. Uh, it can be scary, but almost seems like if you have a curious mind, uh, it's exciting. The word excitement comes to mind for me instead of fearful or instead of even more so than curious.
Like you're just excited all the time.
Mike Nelson: Yeah. Well, it's like, you know, just mentally it's like picturing this open door and you're kind of like, there's this part of you that's like, kind of leaning in to like, I wonder, I wonder So, you know, like that is so different than an open door where there's dread or like, oh, I don't know what's going to happen.
It's more like. I wonder what's behind that door. Um, yeah, go ahead. We
Ryan Roberts: had, uh, so my, my wife is a sweetheart and she fosters animals. And we one time fostered two kittens, a brother and [00:23:00] sister. And that would happen. We'd open the front door and one would skedaddle away and hide under the couch and the other one bolt for the door instead.
And I, Those are such different responses. We need both of those. And we both are understanding when we see that in animals, we're like, well, this one's looking for fun and this one's looking for self preservation. But when it comes to humans, it's like we really, we beat ourselves up when we are afraid, but we're also beat ourselves up when we are curious.
It's almost like whatever we do, we're doing it wrong. Right. So we don't have that same patience for ourselves. It's interesting.
Mike Nelson: You know, it's so interesting that you mentioned that because I read something, um, this was another therapist's view of emotions and they said that they, they theorize that all of us have what's called a seeking system, like, and this is also, this is also in animals as well, like, just we, as like [00:24:00] mammals, right?
We have a part of us that. It's, it's involved in play, it's involved in, in curiosity, but it's a seeking system. And what they theorize that what happens sometimes when we're feeling depressed. Or down in our nervous system is shut down is that something has been broken in our seeking system. We've forgotten how to be curious and play and, and it's just all kind of judgery.
And I thought that was such an interesting way of looking at it. Does that make sense?
Ryan Roberts: I can see patterns of that with clients sometimes. And when suddenly a client is able to say, Oh my gosh, I, I really Want money so I can buy a video game. It doesn't really matter what it is, but suddenly when they're driven by something, they can manage these fears so much better or these insecurities, or at least they're able to work through it, but they don't have [00:25:00] that theme they're looking for, or that curiosity, man, it's easy to get stuck.
Mike Nelson: So, you know, bringing it back to the theme, this theme that I love about your podcast, about the story of failure and. And how we overcome that. Um, I think one thing that I've learned in my creative endeavors is that the failure in creativity is not like in doing something and it not turning out the way that you want it to be.
The failure comes in more of the mindset that you're approaching it in, at least in my opinion. So an example of that is that a couple of years ago, I, I wanted to pursue more creativity in my life. And I felt like there was some necessity. I needed some response flexibility. It, it was, it was two parts of creativity.
And the problem was. I was meeting with clients and I felt like most of my time with the client should be listening, [00:26:00] but there was also like, but there is a time for sharing and maybe this idea could be helpful. And so I, I wanted to find a way to share things outside of session, like a principle that seemed maybe a good principle of mental health, but I also wanted to do it in a fun way that was me.
And so I had this idea of what if. I was able to like take movies and, and scenes from movies and television and stuff like that. And kind of stir it together in a pot with a principle of mental health and see what I get. Like, what would that look like? You know? And so I started this idea and you know, you get an idea and then there's the curiosity there.
And then like, as I like to tell people, and then the voices come,
Ryan Roberts: the voices ominous.
Mike Nelson: Yeah. Well, like this [00:27:00] is where like the idea comes and then. I discovered that there was all these voices in my head about why I shouldn't do this or what would happen if I tried. Does that make sense? Like, I don't know if you experienced this, but you had an idea at some point to start a podcast and here it is.
You've materialized it. But like in the initial, I don't know, in the initial like stages of the idea, did you find some voices come up in your head like telling you why you shouldn't or?
Ryan Roberts: It's like every stage of the process, not just the podcast as a whole, but through the entire process, whether it's the recording phase or research or watching YouTube videos and learning about it, it's like every single step it was, there was some voice that it's like, you don't know what you're doing, Ryan.
The reality is I don't know what I'm doing, but I'm having fun with it, but the voices are still there. Yeah,
Mike Nelson: absolutely. So again, if I had another [00:28:00] invitation for your listeners who are listening to this and they have an idea that's tugging at them and they're curious about it and they wonder if they can pursue it.
I would say rather than like
think rather like sometimes people are like, no, I don't want to even listen to that voice. I don't want to like, I want to just push that voice away. I would say, no, get really clear about that voice. Just like kind of get to know it. Listen to what it has to say. Write it down on a piece of paper. What is that voice trying to tell you?
Because as you, as you get to know that voice and that fear, and as you listen to it, not like listen to it isn't like you have to act on it, but get to know like why it's there. It teaches you a lot about yourself. Does that make sense? Like,
Ryan Roberts: yes, I mean, we can attach a need to each emotion, right? So for the feeling that there's a need there, if you're [00:29:00] ignoring the voice, we're not going to be clear about what that need is.
Mike Nelson: Yes. Yes, exactly. And if you can listen to the voice and say, what do you really need? Like, what are you really, really afraid of? Then you can be creative in your way that you can meet that need. So like to be really vulnerable for a minute, I'll share with you some, as I started this project of like trying to teach some mental health ideas by using something that felt like creative and fun for me.
And that's movies and television. I'll list for you some of the fears that came up for me. Okay. Okay. One fear that came up was others are going to compare me, and in that comparison, find my work subpar. And then I'll be feeling this feeling of, well, you tried something and you really sucked. Another fear that came up was.[00:30:00]
What if people, like, misunderstand what you're trying to say, and, like, even, like, Read in something that you say in one of these videos and feel like it's very harmful or feel like it's wrong or dangerous, right? And, um, what if, uh, another fear that came up is what if you don't do it perfectly? What if the only way for this to be good is it has to be done in a very, very specific way for it to be successful?
And another, and lastly, one of the other fears that came up is what if you really disappoint yourself? What if you try this and then you step back and you look and you go, you know, that was just not worth the effort.
Ryan Roberts: How are you able to work through these then?
Mike Nelson: Well, I, I literally, I, um, I create, I had in my phone a little [00:31:00] note, like, you know, how, like in all of our phones now there's like a little note application. I had a note and it, and the title was voices around my video project. And like, when I felt one of these come up.
I'd write it down. I'd try to get as clear about that as possible. And, um, and then I'd listen, and I'd read, and I'd explore, and I'd get curious, and I'd see if there, if I could have some conversations with these parts. And, um, for example, one of the ones that came up a lot for me was, um,
you know, what if people compare or see, don't see a whole lot of value in this? And the, and what, what another part of me came back and said to this part was, well, do you think that you can just enjoy the process enough that [00:32:00] regardless of what anyone else says about it or thinks about it, or even if they've never heard anything about it, can you just enjoy the process?
And that was something that I meditated on quite a bit. And, and again, an invitation I would, I would give to your listeners, right? Like if they have something tugging at their mind, something that they'd like to do, I'd say, when you come back to that idea, That the universe is poking your shoulder about, like, it's like, Hey, you know, what do you think you could do this?
I would say, is this an idea that requires you to have like a billion followers? Is this an idea that you need to be recognized in a certain way about, or do you need to like receive a certain accolade or reward? And if so, maybe, maybe you're less interested in the idea and more interested in how people See the idea, but what if you could like sit with the idea and just think if I just did that [00:33:00] and no one else saw it and no one else had an opinion of it and no one else and I could just enjoy and be satisfied with that process, what would that be like?
Ryan Roberts: You make me think of something you, you, uh, you and I, um, I consulted you at one point and you'd given me some interesting, uh, insight on something. Uh, I took that and Brought it to a client. It was really, really cool. And this client had been really struggling with perfectionism. And they're an artist. And I don't think you even realized I was going to take this and use it for this client entirely, but you talked about, um, destroying work when you're completed with it as a way to be more comfortable with the process.
And so I actually tried that and I'd never tried that before, but this client, her face, like paled what I told her. I'm like, how about you drop for like five minutes a day? She's like, yeah, I already do that. I'm like, and then destroy it. Throw it away. She's like, I can't. And then [00:34:00] she showed me her sketchbook and it was filled with unfinished drawings.
And they were all pieces of agony for her. Like, I can't get this one right. And I can't get this one. We started this exercise and the first week she only was able to rip up like one thing. Um, after a while she was like, man, I got into the, the routine of drawing and being comfortable and just having fun with it and being okay with it.
Uh, the output, whatever it is, and it goes away and I just kind of, I'm present and she becomes more present and more okay with. Uh, the process, her distress has gone down a ton, um, when she does create something that's focused on the output, like for an assignment, I think she was in digital, uh, or graphic design.
That's what's called graphic design. Um, when she submitted something, it was less stressful for her, like a whole bunch changed just with this one intervention that you told me. Like destroy your work. It was cool. I don't know if it's for everyone for this [00:35:00] client. Oh, so powerful.
Mike Nelson: Yeah. Yeah. One of the things again, coming back to Elizabeth Gilbert, one of the things that she talks about is this duality in creation.
She says, one of the things that's helpful is to look at the stakes. Now, what we make and what we write and what we do, it does matter and it doesn't matter. Like that's kind of like, she has a whole chapter on that. She's like, one of the great things about play, one of the great things about being able creative is that we have enough space in our life to just do something just for the sake of doing it.
And we kind of bounce back and forth between these two parts of a paradox is that yeah, it matters and we should create and it's really, really good. But at the end of the day, one of the great things about like having fun with something is that it doesn't matter that much. [00:36:00] And I thought that was such an interesting idea to kind of go back and forth between this, but just being able to have space to play and create and be curious is, is really a success.
And I think, again, speaking to the themes of your podcast, I think failure starts to come, or we start to frame things in terms of failure. When we. Have put the stakes really, really high
and we lose some of that playfulness and we lose some of that creativity. We get really scared of failure itself. And that's honestly one of the, the most, uh, I think one of the most human fears is a fear of failure. And are you, you're familiar with the work of Bernie Brown, right? Absolutely. Yeah, I love Bernie Brown and she talks about how some of that fear of failure kind of comes back to our evolutionary history.
She says that, you know, she believes that [00:37:00] evolutionary, you know, humans were, we needed to belong to a tribe. And if we didn't, we weren't. In the tribe, we would be eaten by saber tooth tigers. And so not belonging over time has really gained a lot of gravity in our nervous systems. And if we ever do anything that we're like, we feel like we make a mistake or we feel like we do something wrong.
What our nervous system is telling us is, okay, you're not going to belong and you're going to be eaten by a tiger. You're not going to be involved in the tribe anymore. That need to belong that she calls shame is, is at the core, I think of a lot of like creative shame and creative failures. There's a lot of people that talk about how, um, Early on, you know, they would draw something and someone said, Oh, that's really, really bad.
And that created a pattern in our life of thinking I need to draw in [00:38:00] order to get praise. I need to draw in order to, I need to draw rather than just, you know, it's so fun to draw.
Ryan Roberts: So I'll tell you how often, um, maybe even more than nine 10, when I have a client that's struggling with. Uh, stress for an upcoming test. Hmm. Uh, and we dive into why are we stressed about it? And there's a sense of failure. The failure is not always about the test. Certainly we dive in like, well, I want to get a career or why does that matter?
That kind of comes down to, Oh man, mom and dad, I really want mom and dad to see me in a career, or it's like, man, my friends are in this position and I want to be in a similar position as them and be on par, whether that's healthy mindset or not. Doesn't matter there. They want that. They were like, I want to connect and that's how they see connection happening.
That's the path. That they see to get there, which is I got to pass this test and all [00:39:00] these problems I see with all my clients, when we dive down to it or dig deep, it's a connection. It's like, this is the problem. Cause either I gained connection or I lose connection. Like that's really what's at stake for a lot of people.
Right. And then, you know, the one out of 10, um, usually there's some other need and that's fine, but if we can separate from that, Uh, for example, it makes me think of something a professor told me once we said, some of the best self care is the kind that serves no purpose. And I have clients that are trying to do self care and they'll do something like, I mean, exercise is phenomenal, but like I'll exercise, but it also helps with X, Y, and Z.
And I think my professor's point would be if you just like to exercise, like do it for that sake. And it's okay if it gives you other health benefits. And if you like to draw, you can think about these other benefits, but drawing is all you need to have fun, take care of yourself. It doesn't matter if there's additional benefits to that.
I [00:40:00] like that as well, but yeah, the connection piece and being present for that process, recognizing that. Maybe it can give you that connection. Maybe not, but just being aware of what it actually does for you. Sounds like it's huge. And it sounds like tying it back to the voices that you're talking about, listening to those voices is probably what's going to help you identify what it is that you're going to get from this process and what it is you really are worried about.
Well said. Yeah. Okay. Well, awesome, man. We're about out of time. So here's how I wrap up today. Okay. I want to walk away with us talking about the biggest takeaway points. I'll, uh, I'll begin while you're thinking about yours, but some of the biggest things for me, and there's some awesome content today. Um, man, I think the.
It's actually what you said near the beginning is this storytelling element. I usually think of creativity with my clients. Like I said, as a way of solving [00:41:00] problems a lot of the time. And I think that can be incredibly helpful, but I've learned as I've done more public speaking, that stories move people.
So even if people know things rationally and mentally, uh, I can teach a concept. Sure. As soon as I attach a story to it, people suddenly like either it clicks or they're invested or they remember it doesn't really matter, but it seems like a lot of people. Like stories, as soon as I made this shift to, you know, 95 percent content, 5 percent stories in my workshop to instead, you know, 30 percent content and 70 percent stories.
People like ate it up. People remembered so much more. They can teach it better. Uh, it's made a huge shift. And so just the ability to enjoy stories, I think is something that people veer away from, and I kind of want people to go back to that and implement in life. So that's a big [00:42:00] takeaway for me. I love it.
What about for
Mike Nelson: you? Well, again, thanks for asking. I, again, I love the opportunity of being here. I love the opportunity to, to think. And I think one of the things that has really solidified. In my mind is I've prepared for today is I want to live a life more where I set aside this idea of failure around creativity, that there isn't, I create something and I've succeeded or I failed.
There's just learning and growth. Yes. And if I can keep that in mind, right? Like the, how, um, Elizabeth Gilbert says that living a life that is driven more by curiosity than by fear. That is a real success. I think that's like in the wording of your podcast, fail it to nail it. That's nailing it. Like if you look at someone, if you [00:43:00] look at like a child and they're just drawing because, Oh my gosh, like you can just see that they're into it and they're the coloring and it's not about the outcome.
It's not about that is a. A real success. And the other thing, the one other thing that I would say is really solidified for me is that when I create, and then those voices come, um, when I try to, when, when the universe is tugging at me with an idea, and then those voices come to tell me, like, all the reasons why I shouldn't engage in it.
is that rather than like be scared of those voices is just to kind of like listen in and be a compassionate empathetic listener and see what the real needs are that I need to have met in me. And in that way, all of those fears and those [00:44:00] anxieties that come up, that tension that that happens in creativity is a Is a, another opportunity to get to know myself better.
Those are two things that really have stuck out to me in preparation for today. So thanks so much for this opportunity. It's really, really great that you're doing this.
Ryan Roberts: Yeah. I wish I had more time. It was fun talking to you. Okay. We'll call it a wrap up for today. We'll call it good. Thank you, Mike. Take care of yourself.
You too. Okay. Bye bye.
